Elizabeth Willis, Comments About On-Line

[Affiliate]

This was posted in another thread and I feel it's important to start a new thread.
Elizabeth Willis, Chief, Drug Operations,
DEA Office of Diversion Control
Records Comments About On-Line Pharmacies


OCT 21--DEA Drug Operations Chief Betsy Willis today recorded comments about internet pharmacies. She has recorded 4 separate actualities. They are accessible to radio stations and others interested in using the following:
<BLOCKQUOTE>


Dial: 1-888-557-6494
Enter: 701, 702, 703, 704 at prompt (note: you will need to dial separately for each)</BLOCKQUOTE>


On Sunday, October 19, 2003 the Washington Post began a 5 part series on the impact of the internet on pharmaceuticals. Willis and other DEA officials were interviewed for the series. The Federal Register Notice, April 27, 2001 (http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/fed_regs/notices/2001/fr0427.htm) (Volume 66, Number 82) has additional information explaining the laws pertaining.


http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/

[Affiliate]

If you listen to the recording it's clear it's time to stop selling controlled substances. That's it for me!

[Shark Attack]

Yep there is no grey area.

[Affiliate]

We ask for them to tell us what the wanted and it couldn't be more clear. IT'S OVER!!!

[Pharmacy316]

your right


lata

[Affiliate]

Call the number you moron!

[MarketingMaster]

Affiliate, get out of the industry already and leave the boards!!!!!!

[Pharmacy316]

right again

[Shark Attack]

Well said Affiliate - I have no time for you Pharmacy 316

[MarketingMaster]

Then leave this thread and go do something else you dooshbag

[rxmary]

The actual physical location of the pharmacy which purchases, stores and dispenses controlled substances pursuant to prescription orders processed by the Internet site must be registered with DEA. The web site itself would not require a separate registration unless it is the same physical location, since the web site does not store or dispense controlled substances. For example, some Internet pharmacies maintain a central pharmacy warehouse site and offices where prescriptions are verified and substances shipped; this location must be registered with DEA as a retail pharmacy. Other Internet sites allow patients to pick up their prescriptions for controlled substances from a local pharmacy; these local pharmacies must be registered with DEA. In this case, the Internet "pharmacy" has no obligations under DEA regulations because the responsibility for assuring compliance with DEA regulations rests with the actual pharmacy where the controlled substances are dispensed.


This tells me that the DEA won't be busting down my door.


This is interesting. Vague- but interesting:


No, you are still authorized to sell controlled substances only when there is a valid prescription from a DEA-registered practitioner who issued the prescription in the usual course of his or her professional practice.


Now this is why they were talking about the bottles of Phentermine that were filled already and they were just slapping a label on them prior to shipment....


You may fill valid prescriptions for Schedule II substances if the patient or prescriber provides you with the signed original prescriptions prior to dispensing. Practically, it is unlikely that most patients will want to wait the time required for such a transaction.


Here they all saying "For all intensive purposes", but any decent attorney could fight this if the DR. was in a state that didn't require a physical exam.


For purposes of state law, many state authorities, with the endorsement of medical societies, consider the existence of the following four elements as an indication that a legitimate doctor/patient relationship has been established:

[Affiliate]

You guys really know how to f up an important threat. Admin, please delete all post after the 4th one.

[Pharmacy316]

How

[Pharmacy316]

Thanks

[MarketingMaster]

Hey affiliate, since you are too big of a pussy to be in the RX biz, go play on AOL chat!

[Shark Attack]

The actions taken by UltimateRx and actually hearing the calls.


Here is the list of drugs UltimateRx now sell:


Allergies
PRODUCT
Advair
Allegra
Allegra - D
Clarinex
Flonase .05%
Nasacort
Nasonex
Patanol
Zyrtec
(US Only)
Birth Control
PRODUCT
Alesse
Ortho Evra
Ortho TriCyclen
Yasmin


Cold Sores
PRODUCT
Denavir 1%
Zovirax 5%
Heartburn
PRODUCT
Nexium
Prevacid
Prilosec
Herpes Treatment
PRODUCT
Aldara 12 Pack


Condylox (gel)
Famvir
Valtrex
Men's Health
PRODUCT
Cialis
(International)
Levitra
(US Only)
Levitra
(International)
Propecia
(US Only)
Propecia
(Euro)
Uprima
(International)
Viagra
(US Only)
Viagra
(Euro)
Motion Sickness
PRODUCT
Transderm Scop
Pain Relief
PRODUCT
Celebrex
(US Only)
Celebrex
(Euro)
Esgic Plus
Flextra DS
Stadol
Stadol - Generic
Tramadol
Ultracet
Ultram
Vioxx
(US Only)
Vioxx
(Euro)
Skin Care
PRODUCT
Eudyna
(Euro)
Renova 0.05%
Retin-A
Temovate Cream
Stop Smoking
PRODUCT
Zyban
(Us Only)
Zyban
(Euro)
Weight Loss
PRODUCT
Xenical
(US Only)


Xenical
(Euro)
Women's Health
PRODUCT
Diflucan
Sarafem
Vaniqa

[redex]

I know I have posted excerpts from this page a dozen times on this board. What made you all finally see the light


http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/fed_regs/notices/2001/fr04 (http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/fed_regs/notices/2001/fr04 27.htm) 27.htm


There is still a great need for schedule 5 medications which DO NOT require DEA registrations, there are also a handful of non-greedy OPs out there that limit their offerings to those meds. They have affiliate programs butthey don't have phentermine! smileys/smiley16.gif

[Pharmacy316]

none

[redex]

Hey affiliate, since you are too big of a pussy to be in the RX biz, go play on AOL chat!


Is that necessary?

[chicago]

I am done

[Affiliate]

Redex, I'm with you my man. I'm not bailing out of this biz... just no more risky meds. I don't see a problem marketing Viagra and Levitra.

[redex]

Here is a list of people that care none


Wrong, most all of us here care. There are only two meds missing from that list that I sell,Shark Attack. The strong will survive, the easy moneys will all bail out. (more sales for me)

[MarketingMaster]

Hey affiliate, since you are too big of a pussy to be in the RX biz, go play on AOL chat!


Is that necessary?





People hating on YOUR income!!!! YES!!!

[Affiliate]

MM and 316 you guys contribute nothing but smack to this forum. I hope you get banned! Fighting on the internet is retarded!

[MarketingMaster]

REDEX, REDEX, REDEX!!!!!!!!!


If you really made money you'd be out on Friday night instead of arguing with broke people like me. DORK!

[MarketingMaster]

MM and 316 you guys contribute nothing but smack to this forum. I hope you get banned! Fighting on the internet is retarded!


Me too, that way I don't have to read your stupid posts!

[MedsDirect]

At this point, according to the DEA, a physical exam is required for all controlled substances. Also, the resulting prescription must be faxed or transfered via the telephone to the pharmacy. Anything less is consider illegal sale of a controlled substance.


The DEA also specifies that websites used to facilitate an illegal sale can be fined up to 4 yrs in jail and up to $30,000 dollars.


The key here is to insure that your OP is requiring exams and medical records for all controlled substances, and that the resulting prescriptions are being sent to the pharmacy in the proper method.


Otherwise it appears that, according to these recent clarifications, owners of 3rd party marketing sites can face legal penalties.


We will no longer use online questionairres for controlled substances. Controlled substances will require a pre-existing prescription or will involve a physical exam provided by a nurse, as directed by the prescribing doctor.

[rxmary]

NOW - this is true for SOME STATES in those states this statement is correct - in the other states it is false, the DEA can F*ck with people, raid, take, and put pressure on local judges, but they CANNOT MAKE LAWS - Sooner or later these issues will end up in a court room, until then they will try to bully online OP's into closing down.


For purposes of state law, many state authorities, with the endorsement of medical societies, consider the existence of the following four elements as an indication that a legitimate doctor/patient relationship has been established:
<UL style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
<LI>A patient has a medical complaint;

<LI>A medical history has been taken;

<LI>A physical examination has been performed; and </LI>[/list]


[[Page 21183]]
<UL style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
<LI>Some logical connection exists between the medical complaint, the medical history, the physical examination, and the drug prescribed. </LI>[/list]


Completing a questionnaire that is then reviewed by a doctor hired by the Internet pharmacy could not be considered the basis for a doctor/patient relationship.


notice the use of MAY Be Engaging


Some Internet pharmacy sites do not require that you have a prescription from your doctor. These "Internet Pharmacies" require the customer to complete a medical questionnaire. This type of site advises that the information will be reviewed by a doctor, and the drug will be prescribed and sent to you, if appropriate. The medical questionnaire often has most of the questions set so that if the default answers are not changed, the questions are answered in an appropriate manner to obtain the desired drug. Questionnaire sites often require that the customer waive certain rights. This type of pharmacy usually does not name the doctor who will be reviewing the medical questionnaire or provide any information about the qualifications of the doctor. These sites operate in a manner that is not consistent with state laws regarding standards of medical practice and may be engaging in illegal sales of controlled substances (see discussion above).


So is it State or Federal Law which takes precedence?


Every state separately imposes the same requirement under its laws. Under Federal and state law, for a doctor to be acting in the usual course of professional practice, there must be a bona fide doctor/patient relationship.


Very Important paragraph:


The actual physical location of the pharmacy which purchases, stores and dispenses controlled substances pursuant to prescription orders processed by the Internet site must be registered with DEA. The web site itself would not require a separate registration unless it is the same physical location, since the web site does not store or dispense controlled substances. For example, some Internet pharmacies maintain a central pharmacy warehouse site and offices where prescriptions are verified and substances shipped; this location must be registered with DEA as a retail pharmacy. Other Internet sites allow patients to pick up their prescriptions for controlled substances from a local pharmacy; these local pharmacies must be registered with DEA. In this case, the Internet "pharmacy" has no obligations under DEA regulations because the responsibility for assuring compliance with DEA regulations rests with the actual pharmacy

[Affiliate]

The DEA is saying it's illegal to prescribe controlled substances via an online questionare. I don't have the money or time to try and fight the DEA in court. Why take the risk?

[Pharmacy316]

your absolutley right

[MarketingMaster]

IN

[Affiliate]

so shut up and quit making the rest of us freak out over newspaper links that may or may not effect us.





Thanks for another informative post. Is this a newspaper link? http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/pubs/pressrel/pr102103p.html


Have you even called and listened to the messages?

[MarketingMaster]

Take down your website or do not post again cuz you are not making sense your crying but i guarantee your site is live

[Affiliate]

No crying here. All my controlled substance sites are down. Istarted preparing for this months ago. It's going to hurt to lose phentermine sales but I'm a pussy (like you said) and I'm not risking spending all the money I made on legal fees.

[Shark Attack]

MarketingMaster - it is beyond me why you can't debate this serious issue like an adult. Sites might be live or other, it doesn't stop someone stating that they are concerned. You are doing yourself no favours with your numerous outbursts.


The point of this thread was to discuss statements made on the DEA website not from a newspaper.

[MarketingMaster]

SharkAttack, lets' get back on topic then instead of attacking me, a poor 19 year old.

[fastrx]

So drugstore.com is doing a safety awareness compaign about ordering Vicodin,


Xanax, Lortab, etc online. They state the Op's contaminate the drugs and you do not kow what you are getting...Customers bewarehttp://www.rxaffiliateforum.com/smileys/smiley19.gif


Yeah sure if you order lortab...some rx is gonna sell you vitamins instead.. Watered down tylenol..


Drugstore.com get real......


Come on... like you really care... It would appear Op is kicking their but...


To """" someone


"if you build it they will come"


On a personal note, I have customers that really need pain management meds..


car accidents, etc. Most have lost their insurance. So for them I say...


long live xanan, vicodin, lortad, codeine......http://www.rxaffiliateforum.com/smileys/smiley8.gif

[redex]

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="95%" align=center>
<T>
<TR>
<TD class=bold>MarketingMaster wrote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" bgColor=#999999>
<T>
<TR>
<TD>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="100%" bgColor=#ffffff>
<T>
<TR>
<TD class=text>me, a poor 19 year old.</TD></TR></T></TABLE></TD></TR></T></TABLE></TD></TR></T></TABLE>


That explains a lot. http://www.rxaffiliateforum.com/smileys/smiley4.gifDidn't anyone tell you that you have to be 21 to be in this business.

[MarketingMaster]

Not when your an alien Retard! Hey Retard, I think somewhere in this board there's a clue.......maybe you should GET IT!





OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOO

[Affiliate]

MarketingMaster, for many of us the RX industry is our livelyhood and business. If you are here to just F around... please leave. You've posted nothing but garbage and slaughteredthisthread. If you where smart you would sit back and learn a little. You could make more money than your mommy and daddy. Stop being such a hard on.

[daverx]

Ok quick question regarding soma: It is controlled in some states, not controlled in others. Can we keep selling this? Is there some sort of barrier in place at the affiliate company's backend that will prevent it from being sold to a person in a state where it's controlled? I think I will keep soma on board until it is (if it is) made controlled everywhere.


-daverx

[redex]

Keep it on until it disappears from your pricelist :)

[MarketingMaster]

MarketingMaster, for many of us the RX industry is our livelyhood and business. If you are here to just F around... please leave. You've posted nothing but garbage and slaughteredthisthread. If you where smart you would sit back and learn a little. You could make more money than your mommy and daddy. Stop being such a hard on.


Affiliate - that post shows your a complete idiot. You've posted nothing but negativity here, so why don't you leave. This is your business? Than quit being a pessimistic schmuck! Go do something else with your negative thoughts, you aren't helpng us here.


By the way my parents are dead. Thanks for reminding me asshole.

[Affiliate]

Your 19 and your parents are dead? If that is true than I apologize. I'm not being pessimistic just reading and listening to the facts from the DEA's website.Think a little and read the facts thanpost your argument on how I'm being pessimistic.Prove me wrong. Anyone cancall another person a schmuck! Can you use your brain a little andthink or are you going to trash this thread even more?

[smokey]

You guys fight like I fight with my little brother........

[rxmary]

LOL, or like my husband fights with me smileys/smiley3.gif


Seriously, he is a nasty, go for the juggler type. I'm the type that just rolls my eyes and says "whatever" LOL


Oh, if all the world could just chill a bit and think before they speak (or type) BUT, some people like drama and excitement.

[redex]

recruit teenagers as affiliates while they still know everything. smileys/smiley8.gif

[insman]

Hey gang,


Concerning the pulling of meds, Redex.....is this up to us to do??? I've read bunches on the dea/fda site, and it's still unclear to me.


fioricet, ambien, and sonata are under schedule 4 I beleive....what do you think about these???





Thanks for your perspecitive.


~Insman

[rxmary]

what this all boils down to is if the dea supercedes state law. Notice I didn't say Federal law, because the DEA is acting on its own authority. Now do they have the final say as to if dr. patient relationship is established by a physical exam, or do the individual states.


This needs to be answered first. If states rights take precedence, then this is all moot.


Edited to add:


The first pharmacy got into trouble not for distributing any one type of drug but because they filled a script for a minor. Also, when they raided the pharmacy, they found bottles of meds filled prior to being prescribed by a physician. (what this means is that they had bottled phentermine into 90 tab bottles, 30 capsules, etc. without the pharmacy sticker indicating the patient name, rx #, and Dr. name. This is illegal. That is why they cannot sell certain types of meds. They were licensed with the DEA the DEA pulled the license based upon what they found during the raid. The warrant for the raid was probably issued by a federal judge based upon the fact they filled a script for a controlled substance for a minor.


If an attorney can find the warrant was falsely issued, or issued under false pretense (lying on the consultation form to obtain the script) then the entire case will be dropped. Which [deep breathe] is why the DEA refuses to schedule the hearing which should have been held ASAP!

[Shark Attack]

Yep it all come downt o who you want to believe has the final power, and hence the various views on the subject. Debate is healthy and I'm checking the forum on the hour for any proper news. Who knows what this coming week will bring, will things quiten down or will some of the OPs withdraw selling controlled substances ? This biz certainly keeps you on your toes.

[localhost]

...the warrant for the raid was probably issued by a federal judge based upon the fact they filled a script for a controlled substance for a minor.


sorry, but here is where i get lost. i realize it is VERY bad to sell a controlled substance tominor, but is it really technically illegal.i know for a fact after a sports injuy i ended up in emergency care and on leaving givena prescription for a hugeamount ofpercocets. the script was made out to me personally from a doctor i did not know he was on call thats all. it was filled no questions asked from a local pharmacy. this was jsutfew years ago and i was definately a MINOR. no parents involved.

[rxmary]

well, that statement was made based upon everything I've read about this situation, I am not above a mistake for sure, so if it is incorrect and there was a different reason, I would accept that. But they had a reason ( well one to tell the press anyway) based upon their transaction and the medication received from Lifeline.

[redex]

sorry, but here is where i get lost. i realize it is VERY bad to sell a controlled substance tominor, but is it really technically illegal.i know for a fact after a sports injuy i ended up in emergency care and on leaving givena prescription for a hugeamount ofpercocets. the script was made out to me personally from a doctor i did not know he was on call thats all. it was filled no questions asked from a local pharmacy. this was jsutfew years ago and i was definately a MINOR. no parents involved.


The BIG difference here, is you had a face to face at the emergency care facility. It is not illegal to prescribe controlled substances to minors. It's illegal over the internet though, especially when the patient lies about their age.

[MedsDirect]

Another thing that happened inthis case is that the agent applied for phentermine with a BMI that caused it to be rejected, 5'7'' and 130 lbs if I recall. They then changed ONLY the height (to 5'0''). In this particular instance, it showed that by changing the information, you could qualify for a drug that you shouldn't. The system involved should have run a pattern match against orders to see if someone was trying to work the questionairre system, and deny any repeat attempts by the same person.


I'm not sure if this is the sole reason for the DEA revocation, but it sure helps the DEA case against online questionairres.

[stro2425]

The feds only have 3600 DEA agents worldwide. There are some major problems besides internet pharmaceuticals. It will take a while for this entire thing to shake out. Many sites are already listing a physical exam for purchase. It would take alot of manp power (agents) and court time to go to every online pharmacy and raid, challenge, and bring to court.


Meanwhile, Afghanistan had it's largest opium harvest since the Taliban burned all of the fields. The feds have priorities, and if a pharmacy was filling before having a doctor prescribe it then that business should be shut down. The pharmaceutical lobby is not going to just stand still while the feds shut the internet down. There will be some nice balance reached.


The key is to remember the number of resources available to the DEA. They must use their resources wisely, otherwise, Afghan heroin will be much more damaging than internet, controlled prescriptions. Not to mention Columbia and the continueing Cocaine problem.

[icollect]

The feds only have 3600 DEA agents worldwide. There are some major problems besides internet pharmaceuticals. It will take a while for this entire thing to shake out. Many sites are already listing a physical exam for purchase. It would take alot of manp power (agents) and court time to go to every online pharmacy and raid, challenge, and bring to court.


They see this as using resource wisely, it's like shooting fish in a barrel. This is not even a challenge, because nobody is speaking up. If they go kick in a drug dealers door they have to actully charge him with a crime and all sorts of legal protections are in place to protect the defendants rights. This "administrative" action provides no protection for the defendant. The judge was even saying pretty please to the DEA to let the pharmacy keep operating, but not on the web.


The DEA has failed miserably in it's charter. I had a drug dealer threaten my life shortly after my brother died, because he wanted to steal my brothers estate and that just wasn't going to happen. I started by calling the Atlanta office, where I explained the situation, and ended up getting redirected to Birmingham, where the only party I could reach was an awnsering machine, where I left a detailed message. Never did get a call back. I guess I'm still alive because one of us is scared and the other is glad of it.


There are two Meth Labs within one block of my house and I live in a nice neighborhood. The cops know, but do nothing about it. Theft and violence are at an all time high in this town


No we are easy targets that offer easy sucesses to an organization that cannot accomplish it's real mission to stop the flow and manufacture of illegal drugs. They will not go away, this is an election year and in case your like me and don't have time to watch the news, the economy sucks, we're getting our ass handed to us in Irag, and the aprroval rates are falling. Any harbor in a storm and it looks like they think we could supply good press, Jesus from reading the Washington you'd think we were killing people and holding drug addicted pedophile doctors in closets, not offering people health care alternatives.


The only law that was broken in the case of restating BMI was by the DEA agent. It is illegal to make false statements in order to obtain a controled substance. In addition by claiming that she made a typo it gets dangerously close to entrapment.

[redex]

There are two Meth Labs within one block of my house and I live in a nice neighborhood. The cops know, but do nothing about it. Theft and violence are at an all time high in this town


Damn, somebody please buy icollect out so he/she can buy some suitcases and get the hell out of Dodge.

[icollect]

Hey thanks redex, maybe it could be a community buyout. Put a jar out on the forum or better yet COD with saturday delivery.

[JayB]

There are meth labseverywhere in L.A. as well.


Lower Alabama, that is.

[djptbg]

Great more sales for us then!! run and hid run and hidesmileys/smiley11.gif

[redex]

Great more sales for us then!! run and hid run and hidesmileys/smiley11.gif


Welcome djptbg, coming on a little heavy for your first ever post, huh smileys/smiley8.gif

[djptbg]

just bustin smileys/smiley1.gif

[redex]

Watch out for the brass ovaries! smileys/smiley8.gif

[djptbg]

got it boss lady LOL

[Affiliate]

"run and hid run and hide" - you watched ocean's eleven one to many times.

[secmann]

ahh... yes, I can see the ads found on OP sites all over the country now....

TYLENOL SOLD HERE !</font>
No prior prescription needed. FREE online consultation. Please submit complete medical history for last 3 generations, copy of full physical within past year, blood test results, tissue sample, print of right thumb and index finger and results from rectal probe.

... sounds like the beginning of a successful business... smileys/smiley25.gif

[Pharmacy316]

your right

[redex]

Thanks for resurecting an old thread. Secman did leave. He posted that two weeks ago. The snow must be falling up this winter. smileys/smiley8.gif

[Affiliate]

Ding... ding... ding... WINNER!!!


http://surftoe.com//images/k_assclown.jpg

[medoptions]

Hahaha, the Assclown award needs a Prime Time slot next to the Academy Awards. Obviously the ads above, and others blatantly trying to sell controlled substances online without a prescription are going to catch the eyes of the DEA. I'm surprised anyone gets away with selling a controlled substance without requiring a prescription, it's just really dangerous

[IntegraRX]

This is my first time in here and it's amazing seeing all the posts. I represent IntegraRx and we work closely with all our physicians and pharmacies. Every indication from the FDA, DEA, AMA, and NABP is that they want to work with on-line providers, but have been hesitant because of all those recently caught cutting corners.


All we can do - Is do it right!!


-Rich

[iggy]

Rich, well done! Way to step up to the plate and come forward as defending the online consult model.